EP 190: Undreaming Wetiko (the mind virus): Breaking the spell with Paul Levy

We are in the midst of a collective psychosis that the Native Americans call "wetiko." Wetiko can be likened to a mind-virus. Quantum in nature, it contains both the deepest evil and its own medicine. Wetiko can either destroy our species or wake us up, depending on whether or not we recognize what it is revealing to us.

A pioneer in the field of spiritual emergence, Paul Levy is a wounded healer in private practice, assisting others who are also awakening to the dreamlike nature of reality. He has written three books on the wetiko mind-virus - his most recent book is "Undreaming Wetiko: Breaking the Spell of the Nightmare Mind-Virus."

He is the founder of the “Awaken in the Dream Community” in Portland, Oregon. An artist, he is deeply steeped in the work of C. G. Jung, and has been a Tibetan Buddhist practitioner for close to 40 years.

Connect with Paul Levy here:
https://www.awakeninthedream.com

Levy, an insightful pioneer in unearthing the depths of this psychic epidemic, joins us to unfold the mystery of how Wetiko can distort our perception and identity, urging us to awaken to our intrinsic creative power. Through our conversation, we unearth the vampire-like nature of this entity and its ability to turn our own genius against us, prompting behaviors that echo a planetary self-destruction. As we dissect the elusive threads of this mind virus, we also uncover the potential for healing, emphasizing the critical need for self-connection to combat its blinding illusions.

Levy's compelling arguments draw from the awe-inspiring implications of quantum physics, dissolving the subject-object divide and illuminating the path to self-realization. The episode serves as a call to arms, challenging you to leverage your innate creative agency to dismantle the hold of Wetiko, thus sparking a contagious cycle of self-discovery and outward expression. Our discussion illuminates how embracing creativity is not merely a personal endeavor but a revolutionary act with the potential to reshape our collective world.

Tales of channeling, personal awakenings, and the rich interplay of intuition and coincidence reveal the deeper layers of the psyche. Levy inspires us with reflections on Jungian insights and the enigmatic experiences of Philip K. Dick, pondering the capacity for sudden, impactful shifts in consciousness that could signal a new epoch for humankind. 

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:18

Your life is your greatest work of art, and it all relates back to the sacred mystics. Welcome to Integrate Yourself. I'm your host, Alison Pillow, and you can find me at allicinpillowcom and, finally, thrivingprogramcom. Today I'm here with a very special guest, Paul Levy. He is a pioneer in the field of spiritual emergence, a wounded healer in private practice, assisting others who are also awakening to the dreamlike nature of reality. He has written three books on the Wittego Mindvirus. His most recent book is Undreaming Wittego Breaking the Spell of the Nightmare Mindvirus. He's the founder of the Awaken in the Dream Community in Portland Oregon. He's an artist and he is deeply steeped in the work of Carl Jung and has been a Tibetan Buddhist practitioner for close to 40 years. You can find him at AwakenInTheDreamcom. Paul, thank you so much for being on. I'm so glad you're here. We've made a personal connection in Portland Oregon, and so I am honored that you were wanting to be on my show as well. So thank you for being here.

Speaker 2: 1:34

Oh, thank you. I'm so happy and excited to be here with you today, alison, so thanks.

Speaker 1: 1:39

Yeah, you're welcome. You've written so many books about Wittego and you have shared also with me some of your personal experiences that you've written about in some of your books as well. You've written everything from information about the quantum field to Wittego, this mindvirus that, if people don't know, we're going to talk about that today and share more about what that is. But this is something I'm feeling like most definitely throughout the last couple of years, we've been needing to really know more about, because up until now, it's pretty much been hidden. So I'd love for you to start by just sharing what Wittego is with my audience and how you came to realize what Wittego was in your life as well, and your experience in the outside world.

Speaker 2: 2:32

Yeah, for sure. No, thank you. So it's a Native American term and Wittego really connotes it's like a virus of the mind and it's a cannibalistic spirit that's really the source of all of the evil that we're plying out in our personal lives, collectively, as a species. But I point out, so I'm just a translator, because every spiritual tradition it's not just Native Americans they came up with the word Wittego but every spiritual tradition and visionary artists, thinkers, philosophers throughout history have been pointing at Wittego, but just in different names. And so I'm just a translator. It's not like, oh, I've discovered something, no, I'm just translating this indigenous ancient term into a modern psychological idiom so that we can understand it. And I point out that Wittego it's a quantum phenomena, and what I mean? Just like, if you have light, what is the nature of light? Well, it's a wave or a particle, it depends how you observe it. Wittego being a quantum phenomena, it contains the deepest evil and it's in the superposition of states. It also contains its own vaccine, its own medicine, and not only does it contain its own cure, but it actually is catalyzing the evolution of our species and helping us to wake up. So what Wittego is? It's like this, this form of this revelation. But if we don't recognize it as a revelation, it will kill us. And the origin of Wittego is within the human psyche. And when people hear about a mind virus, some people think oh, that's all woo-woo and new agey and just this goblin book. But what it really means is that the origin of the collective madness because Wittego is a form of collective psychosis the origin of the collective madness that we're playing out all over the world is to be found within the psyche, and that's a no-brainer. Like where in the world else could it be found? And so Wittego, just to give a real, essential articulation of it, it's a virus of the mind. It's like this vampiric spirit that feeds off of our own energy.

Speaker 2: 4:46

You know, in the Bible, in the apocryphal text, they talk about Wittego. They call it the counterfeiting spirit. So it puts us on, it impersonates us, it offers us like this false version of ourselves oh, I'm limited, I'm wounded, I'm traumatized. And if we're not awake in that moment and we identify with its version of ourselves, then it has us, then it can manipulate us and control us. But as long as we're in touch with our true nature, it has no currency over us at all.

Speaker 2: 5:15

And so, wittego, it's a form of this blindness. It's a psychic blindness, but it's a very peculiar form of blindness in that it actually thinks it's sighted and it doesn't know it's blind. And not only that, it thinks it's more sighted than people who actually see. So, wittego, it operates through, it covertly operates through the projective tendencies of the mind, because we're always projecting onto the waking ink plot, but in such a way that we hypnotize ourselves by our own, our own genius, our own creative genius, in a way gets turned against us. In a way, you can think of it like we create this cocoon around us and we suffocate and we're actually killing ourselves. And this process I'm describing is getting played out writ large on the world stage. But what I'm pointing at is that encoded in the revelation, in the Wittego mind virus that's killing us, you know, because clearly we're enacting collective suicide on the planet I mean, that's a no brainer but encoded in or acting out, and this gets mapped on collectively and individually. Think about people with addictions, you know, or in trauma, you know. They're acting out their addiction, they're re-traumatizing themselves. But encoded in the acting out of their addiction or their trauma, they're actually trying to actually unconsciously experience something consciously so as to free themselves from that malady. That's a way of describing Wittego, that we're acting it out as a way of actually becoming conscious of it, and when we do, that's when, all of a sudden, the energy that it was using against us to empower its nefarious agenda and to destroy us, all of a sudden, that same energy becomes available for us to express ourselves creatively, with love and compassion. So it's a very profound idea.

Speaker 2: 7:12

Like I'm saying, I'm just a translator and how I came to this was in my own life. This isn't just, oh, I have like this abstract idea. No, you know, I'm a 67 and when I was in my early 20s I'm an only child and you know, without going into the story, my father was the one. I didn't have any conception of this, but he was taken over by his unconscious because he wasn't dealing with his abuse and just enacted it on the next of kin, like a lot of people do. And, being the only child, I was the recipient of that and it almost killed me. It was so intense and it wound up that the suffering that resulted, you know, it catapulted me in so deeply in words that I had. This was when I was. This was 1981.

Speaker 2: 7:57

So I was like 24 at that point that I had a life transforming spiritual awakening that immediately got me thrown in mental hospitals because from the consensus point of view, the mainstream reality, I had had a radical personality change and I was realizing, oh my God, we're having a collective dream. And I was so excited I no way could you be, at least I wasn't prepared for that realization and I was just so excited about what I was realizing that I'd freak people out. And within a day I got thrown in my first mental hospital and all the doctors you know, and I probably got put in hospitals another four or five times during that next 18 months and every single doctor was oh, you have this newly discovered chemical imbalance, you know, and it's since come out. The same authors of the DSM three, which had come out of 1980, years later came out and said oh, we confess, we're sorry, there's actually no such thing as a chemical imbalance. We just made that up. I mean, I have the quotes. The same doctors who DSM three. They were saying the pharmaceutical companies, who was their marketing campaign to sell more drugs, to make more money. But when they were telling me that I was mentally ill. I was diagnosing them going oh, they're just incredibly ignorant, right they? I never for a second bought in to that.

Speaker 2: 9:14

I was ill because it was made very clear to me that I was having an awakening, and but it was unbelievably difficult because then I got so traumatized by the psychiatric system and I began to realize the same sort of this dark force that was coming through the person of my father.

Speaker 2: 9:32

I was recognizing wait a second, this is the same force, almost like it's non locally pervading the field, that was coming through the system of psychiatry and then, like iterations of a fractal that are internested within each other, I began to realize, wait, that's the same darker force that's playing itself out collectively in the world's body politic. That's when I began to have the initial sort of like understanding of the revelation that was being shown to me. That could have absolutely killed me and it destroyed my mother. It killed both my parents. I haven't had a family for 20 somewhat years, you know, because all of the relatives bought in to my father's version of opulses in denial of his mental illness, and so you know I've had to deal with that. But the point is, is that what I'm writing about? It's not just like a theory. It's come out of my own experience.

Speaker 1: 10:24

Yeah, yeah, that's wow. Thank you for sharing that, paul. That's, and I know that you write about that in your book too, and you explain a lot. You share that story a lot, and I think I know I was reading the Undreaming Witego and your Witego book, the one before that, so I remember reading about that and, yeah, that's amazing that you were able, though, to see so clearly that you know where your truth was within all of that and still be able to heal, you know. So that was that's really incredible story. Yeah, well, when you say heal, keep in mind I'm still a work in progress.

Speaker 1: 11:04

I mean it's.

Speaker 2: 11:04

You know, I'm still assimilating and metabolizing because it was like having a direct encounter with archetypal evil, not just personal evil, but you know, the evil that's portrayed in myths and fairy tales.

Speaker 2: 11:16

And yeah, and I just want to say the only way I was able to not subscribe and buy into the authority figures of the psychiatrist, their version of me. I remember one time in one of the last hospitals they had a big conference with all the psychiatrists in the hospital and me, and they were saying oh, we're all in agreement that you're mentally ill, paul, and you'll have this illness the rest of your life and you're going to need to be on medication until you're dying breath. And I just openly said to them you have no idea what you're talking. And here I'm like locked up in a psychiatric ward. And I was saying to them you have no idea what you're talking about, you're incredibly ignorant. You know and of course that just fed into their diagnosis that I'm mentally ill, that I would respond that way, but it was just. It couldn't have been made more clear in my own mind that I was having an awakening. So what they were saying it. Never, not even for a nanosecond, you know, did I invest it with any truth.

Speaker 1: 14:29

Oh, wow, yeah, yeah, that's incredible and, as you were talking as well in the very beginning about what Tigo it was it reminded me of, and I would also like to ask you this question is it basically an entity, an energy without a body that keeps going from, you know, like a trickster energy kind of thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

Speaker 2: 14:55

Yeah, I would say it's a seeming entity, not just an entity, but we subjectively experience it as if it's an entity. So subjectively our experience, when we're encountering what Tigo in our own minds, we subjectively experience it as if it's an actual, self-existing, other alien entity. But you know from the ultimate sense and I point this out in my work that it has actually no reality, doesn't even exist. There's no such thing as what Tigo, and yet it can kill us. That's the paradox that it has no intrinsic independent existence separate from our own consciousness. And that's in Buddhism that's what's called emptiness, and emptiness is like in Buddhism. That's the analogy.

Speaker 2: 15:35

To like God is that you know, when you realize the empty nature of the universe and of yourself and of your experience.

Speaker 2: 15:43

And so, yeah, it has no, you know. So to say it's an entity is unconsciously, by our words, investing it with the reality that it doesn't deserve. Because if we, you know so, if our listeners hear, oh, my God, there's this mind virus and it's an entity, they'll be afraid, you know, and being afraid is superfood for Tico. So then they're colluding in actually conjuring up the seeming entity that will destroy them. But they don't recognize what it's revealing about ourselves and it's actually showing us the profound importance of the psyche in creating our experience, in creating world events. So you know, it's really tricky talking about this stuff, you know, because, like I'm saying, subjectively, we experience it as if it's an entity. From the ultimate point of view it doesn't even exist. And but if we say, if some one of the mistakes people make I've seen this is, they just immediately identify with the ultimate, absolute point of view oh what, tico, doesn't exist, it's nothing to be afraid of.

Speaker 1: 16:44

That would be my next question. Yeah, yeah, there's a cholera epidemic in the next town.

Speaker 2: 16:49

And if we just say, oh, cholera doesn't exist and we don't take precautions, it'll kill us. So if we think, what Tico? If it doesn't exist, then it will kill us. If we think it does exist, then we're empowering it, you know, with its unwarranted power, and then it'll kill us. You know so.

Speaker 2: 17:05

But the thing that I'm so, this is the conundrum that I'm continually circulating in my work. But you know what Tico is? Is this dreamed up phenomena? You know, and I'm all like when I had the realization in 1981. Oh, my God, we're having a collective dream and, just like in a night dream, you can have this lucidity and recognize oh, it's all. I'm inside of my psyche, this is all my own energy. The same thing, the same understanding can happen in our waking dream. And then you begin to see, oh yeah, we've been programmed and conditioned, based on our unconscious, our unconscious stuff, to dream up this collective epidemic like we see in the world today but that's what I keep on pointing at, it's a revelation and actually recognize what it's showing to us. Then, all of a sudden, the energy that that's bound up to compulsively conjure up this insanity and the evil we're playing out in the world. All of a sudden that energy becomes available for us to express ourselves with love and compassion and by being creative.

Speaker 1: 18:10

Yeah, exactly, I see it as something that we experience. Well, it sounds like we're creating it first of all, and then, if we're creating it, then if we're, we're seeing it, we're acknowledging that it exists without letting, without giving our power away to it, then we're actually able to transmute it. So we're able to, in a way, I think, if we can take full responsibility for ourselves and not, like you said, be afraid of it or let it take over, and then it's not needed anymore, right In a way?

Speaker 2: 18:44

yeah, yeah, yeah, Right. Exactly that's why the title of my new book is Undreaming Watiko. It's exactly that it's like when you realize you're creating it, you can uncreate it. When you realize it's a dreaming phenomenon, you can undream it.

Speaker 2: 18:58

And what I'm pointing out in my work is that this realization is available to all of us right now and one way of imagining it just imagine being in a dream, right In a night dream, and you have lucidity and you realize, oh my God, this is all this. I thought it was objectively real and I was just being conditioned by the forms of the dream. But when you have the lucidity, what you recognize is that wait a second, this isn't outside of myself, this is my own energy. I'm actually inside of my own psyche. Well, that's one person, one dream character in that dream having that realization. What if we imagine that other dream characters, which are just aspects of ourselves in that night dream, they're also having realization of that same understanding and imagine and all of this is via the creative imagination and then imagine that you and other of your dream characters, parts of yourself in the night dream, hang out together and trip out and contemplate what we're realizing. Oh my God, this dream is manifesting in such a problematic, dark, crazy way, because we've been programmed and we've been conditioned to dream it that way.

Speaker 2: 20:05

When you connect with other people who are realizing that, what you discover is what I call our sacred power of dreaming, in which you realize, not intellectually but experientially, we can put our lucidity together and change the dream. We can dream a dream that's more in alignment with who we're discovering ourselves to be, which is not the separate self, because what he got, one simple way of understanding it, is that it's when we're identifying with a separate self, with an artificial self which is not who we are, and then we spend the rest of our lives investing all of our energy in protecting and defending the separate self that doesn't even exist. That's insane. That's what what he goes is.

Speaker 2: 20:43

But when you actually realize, you see through that illusion and you connect with other people who also see through that illusion and recognize, oh my God, we're interdependent, we're interconnected, and you discover, oh my God, we can change the dream and what that is, that's to consciously step into and participate in our own evolution, and that's available to us not in just in the night dream, but in the waking dream. That's what this is all about. What's happening in the world is an initiatory or deal, and you know when. Everything depends if we have the recognition of what's being revealed to us.

Speaker 1: 21:20

Yeah, absolutely yeah. We went through a huge initiation and I feel like what you're talking about has been happening. We have been, people have been waking up and we have had this collective dream and things have gotten better, I feel like, in many ways, but we're still working on it. We're still working on this. You know this collective dream here and it's that illusion of separation that is really unnatural, and we've just been taught that a lot of things that we're living in are which are very unnatural or normal, and you know, but what?

Speaker 2: 21:57

we're learning is yeah, it's not. Well, that's what happens. You know, there's the physicist David Baum has a phrase, an illusion generating illusion, and in a way that's, as soon as we see, once we identify with being a separate self, which is an illusion, that illusion generates a whole host of other illusions, that self reinforce each other, or one way of understanding that is. You know, like in the quantum physics book that I wrote, I point out that quantum physics has empirically proven that there's no such thing as an objective world separate from our consciousness. You know, and I can go into that a lot, I mean, I've written a book about it but the idea is that subjective hallucination of that the world exists objectively feeds into and reinforces the illusion that we exist as a subject. Because as soon as we think the world is an object, well then what coerises immediately is us as a subject, that's in relationship to the object.

Speaker 2: 23:00

But quantum physics is pointing out oh, it makes no sense at all to talk about the world existing objectively. That's just an idea in our mind with no correlate to reality. And when you have that realization of that, there's no world objectively out there. Well, what happened to the subject? Because we as a subject need an object to be in relationship to in order to be a subject, but once you realize there's no object, who am I? You see, that's where quantum physics, which is actually offering the medicine for what he called in the way I just described it, becomes. It's promoting itself to become a spiritual path.

Speaker 1: 23:37

Yeah, yeah, it's so. Here you saying we are the, if we're what we're observing, is what we're perceiving as a reality. Is that what you're saying in a way?

Speaker 2: 23:46

Yeah, well, we become entranced by our creative, by our unconscious creative genius for invoking reality. And one way of understanding this, once again, is through the imagination. Say if, if I'm in a dream, right, and I'm holding a perspective in the dream, well, what is the dream? But it's a reflection of my own mind. So if I'm holding a particular point of view, then the dream, which is not nothing other than a projection of my mind or reflection of how I'm viewing the dream, instantaneously has to just offer all the evidence confirming the viewpoint I'm holding, because the dream is nothing other than reflecting our own mind. And now I have evidence in the dream that what I'm seeing objectively exists, because the dream has shape shifted and offered me all the proof and confirmation that it is out there. So then I become even more entranced and fixed in my viewpoint that what I'm seeing is objectively true. So I see it that way even more, and the dream, just you know, endlessly reflects that back, in such a way that I entranced myself, I've literally hypnotized myself, and the origin of that process is within my own mind. And that's a complete description of what you go that you see. It has no creativity at all, but it's a master personator. So, to the extent that we're not awake to our own creativity, it plugs into our own create creativity and turning it against us.

Speaker 2: 25:07

That's why, again and again, I point out that you know there are a lot of ways I talk about what's the medicine for what you go, you know, seeing through the objective reality, illusion, or developing compassion, recognizing the dream, all of those are facets of the jewel, of the medicine to heal what you go. But the other facet is to connect with the creative spirit, because who we are is creative, you know. Or another way of saying the same thing, because I'm endlessly just funding, you know, these new ways of articulating the same realization that I'm trying to get out to people, because I see, this is medicine, you know, is that one of the ways of really protecting yourself against what he go is to be who you actually are, is to be in touch with your nature. Well, that's such a cliche though. What does that mean? Yeah, and I point out well, what is our nature?

Speaker 2: 25:57

Our nature, by its very nature, is creative, and so when you have the realization of your nature, you embody and express yourself creatively, and the more you do that, the deeper you have the realization of your nature in a positive feedback loop that creates light upon light. And that's why you know I was saying before when what he go, you know, which is the counterfeiting spirit it offers us a false version of your traumatized or whatever you know of who you are. And I said, yeah, if we're not awake and we identify with its version, then it has us. But if we at that moment are awake, you know that false version, we see through that illusion and it even deepens our realization of who we are, and you know. So that's really what this is all about, that any of us individually can really stabilize and to deepen our, you know, experience of our nature, and then, in a way, we're embodying the medicine, because that becomes contagious and then that can go viral.

Speaker 1: 26:58

Absolutely. I 100% agree with that. Yeah, I've experienced that as well. The creative aspect when we tap into that, we do begin to really connect with our authentic self, which is true for us. And also, you know, you kind of experience yourself in different ways more, and in that innocence, you know, like that connecting with the innocence within through your creative powers, you know, and through those creative expressions, I feel like is is the way to get to know yourself, especially if you haven't really, you know, if you've just been going through the motions or identifying too much with, you know, some trauma and those kinds of things, and I haven't been stuck in that, you know. So it's opening yourself up to something greater. You know more than just like you're saying that limited kind of, you know, suffocating self. You know that you're so much more than that. Yeah, we have.

Speaker 2: 27:57

What I point out again and again in my books is that we, each one of us, you know the one hand, we all are have been conditioned to feel powerless or helpless with what's happening in the world. Oh, there are eight billion of us, only one person, you know. And that's really dangerous when you fall into that place of despair and pessimism and helplessness. But I point out again and again that each one of us has this unimaginably vast creative power. And I'll give you an example like, say, if you know, people come to me and they'll say, oh, I'm not creative or I'm not in touch with my creativity, or I'm blocked or feel resistance or stuck or whatever. And I get that.

Speaker 2: 28:39

I mean, you know, any creative person has to navigate that feeling of resistance. I mean that's part of the whole gig. But you know, I try to point out to people because we're creating our experience every moment, by the way we're interpreting what's happening by the meaning we're placing on the waking implant. And I try to point out to people well, you're so incredibly creative that you're, for some reason, you've chosen to access and express your creativity to create the experience of not being creative. And you're so unbelievably such a creative genius that you will literally conjure up the experience of not being creative and then that will. Then you'll identify with that and thinking oh, I'm just not creative. Not realizing that itself is an expression of your creative policy.

Speaker 1: 29:24

Absolutely yeah, and we do. We create every day. When you wake up in the morning, you create your morning. You know ritual. You decorate your house. You know you get dressed and you have a schedule. That's all of. You're creating all of that right.

Speaker 2: 29:41

Exactly, exactly. There's no one else doing that, you're doing that yourself. And that's where it involves really taking ownership and having the realization of oh well, I'm responsible for creating my experience. You know and like, for example, if something seemingly you know dark or challenging happens, you know, like people who might be just absorbed in their you know, in their unconscious, might, you know, right away interpreted as like, oh, this negative thing, I'm victimized and you know it's a bad thing, but like somebody who might be more in touch with their nature, might be like, oh, wow, this is triggering me and it's painful. Wow, this is like showing me something about myself. Oh, my God, this is teaching me about an unconscious part. And it's the same experience, but it's a different way of interpreting it.

Speaker 2: 30:34

And you know, in Tibetan Buddhism there's, there are these things called the hidden treasures, the, the terma, and it's a real thing. One of the lineage I do practice to you that's how the lineage keeps itself fresh over the centuries is that all of a sudden, you know there'll be these revelations, and they'll talk about it in terms of, oh yeah, these terma, these hidden treasures, are hidden and coated within the universe, you know, and within our minds, and all of a sudden, something might happen. You might, somebody might say something and all of a sudden some, like a, like a key, opening up a lock. You'll some of these people who discover these termas. All of a sudden, they'll see a syllable and 20 volumes of text will just come out of their mind and they'll transcribe it. And these texts are like these liberating words that other practitioners will when they read them. It's contagious and they'll have, you know, hidden treasures open up in their mind. And you know that's such an interesting and it's a real thing. You know it's not just a fairytale. You know scholars study this and I've written about it and you know it's all throughout my work.

Speaker 2: 31:44

And I point out that you know being being like a dream, this universe. Well, what happens when we get one sided in a dream? The unconscious compensates our one sidedness by sending a symbols. That that's the language of dreams, that if we get in alignment with the symbol, all of a sudden we get back in balance. And I'm pointing out that when you see this universe is dreamlike and it's very magical. You know there are certain hidden treasures that are coming out, like quantum physics, I point out, you know is a modern day, analog to this idea, of this Tibetan Buddhist idea of Terma, that it actually is like a compensation for the one sidedness of the scientific sort of materialist point of view. That here quantum physics is like is like the medicine for that.

Speaker 2: 32:36

And because when you recognize, like, so what is quantum physics saying? Not only that there's nothing objective, but that the act of observing the universe actually influences the universe observed. That's a description of a dream. And when you really see, that's the rabbit hole, when you realize that you discover, oh my God, my act of observation is creative. I'm not just a passive observer observing the separate world out there, no, but my act of observing it, just like a dream, is creating the universe I observe. So the act of observation is creative.

Speaker 2: 33:09

You see, that's where quantum physics is, and this is the most hardcore, rigorous science. It's showing us we have this unbelievable creative agency that we've been unconscious of. And you know, say, for example, if somebody came into my office today and they shared a dream they had last night, and the dream was exactly what's happening in the world, where, oh, there was just a pandemic and and then all our liberties are being taken away, and there's these, this fascist energy that's creeping all over the world and you know, and they would be describing the dream, which is exactly what's been happening in our world. And if they asked me well, you know, help me to interpret it I would say well, it's clear that you're not in touch with your creative agency, that you've outsourced it, and then the powers that be of the state or whoever, are more than happy to assume you're a creative agency and use it against you. And what the dream is showing you is that you need to get more consciously in touch with your creative power. And that's really all of our dream, that each one of us. And that's why, if I didn't, you know, with all the trauma and the abuse I went through with my father and with psychiatric hospital, it could have killed me, it could have made, it could have disabled me, you know, and I would have.

Speaker 2: 34:23

I was in deep, deep trouble and then, as soon as I got out of that last hospital in 82, I began having, night after night, the most incredible dreams and they were showing what was happening and then I began recognizing in the dreams that I was dreaming and having lucid dreams and connecting with my dreams in that way saved me. It, actually and it was it was showing me the, giving me this initiation into my own creative power. So if I didn't connect with being a creative person and the main medium that I expressed myself is with my books, you know, if I didn't connect with you know, just, oh yeah, I'm a creative person, like we all are I would have been in deep, deep trouble. And I'm 100% convinced. The same is true for all of us, to the extent that any of us are, you know, really familiar, you know, with our creative process. That's the extent that it's like oxygen for the soul, it's like we're accessing medicine. But if we're not in touch with our creative power, I don't. That's like a nightmare and that's why I call it, like I call it, to go in the subtitle the nightmare mind virus, because it will create nightmares both at night and then our waking dream, as is evidenced all around us. You know, in one final thing, like people, I make a joke. I say, yeah, you know, if I had a publicity department, they couldn't, and I do, but it's, you know, it's just a normal publisher publicity department. But if I had a global publicity department, they cannot do a better job and publicizing my work Then, in what's happening in the world.

Speaker 2: 36:01

You know, and if people think, so many people when I wrote my first what's he? Co-book in 2013 that got published, people over the years are like oh my god, you were prescient, you were telling the future, how did you know? And I was like no, no, I'm not at all. I was just tuning into the deeper archetypal, you know, sort of like matrix that was informing and giving shape to what was happening. It was just, you know, cuz artists are like the canary in the coal mine, they're giving voice, you know, to what's beginning to happen in the collective unconscious. And, yeah, and it's just been more and more like, more and more people are like oh yeah, your work maybe was a little bit ahead of its time, but now more and more people are getting. You know, more and more people are talking about a mind virus. You know they're using that term and it's just obvious that the source of what's happening in our world, all the craziness, all the evil, is to be found within our minds. That's the whole idea of what I'm pointing at.

Speaker 1: 37:02

Yeah, yeah, cuz our minds are. In my experience, people want the attention of our mind constantly, right? Social media, it's like I heard this guy described this the other day. He's like a big scrolling through social media is like reading just like the first bit of the first chapter of a book, and then reading another one, and another one, and another one. You know, it's just kind of like it really trains your brain to not be able to really focus on what matters to you and so, right, yeah, it's just really what we're training ourselves to do right now. It's just insane, right.

Speaker 2: 37:41

Yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 2: 37:43

And just a short attention span that so many, particularly of the younger generation, have is of, you know, just reading like stuff on Twitter, like so many people, you know, after they get out of high school or college. They don't ever even you know, the idea of of reading a book is foreign to them. And you know, in one day because I'm really fortunate and then I have these great teachers, and One day I was with them, I was with one of them for breakfast and they just spontaneously said to me goes, you know, my whole practice is to not get distracted. You know, and what he means is that, yeah, he has this living experience of his nature and he just doesn't forget, he just arrests and abides in and as that and everything gets integrated through that viewpoint. You know where there is endless distractions in our world. And you know, and what I point out and this is just you know really, you know Tibetan Buddhism or you know Every wisdom tradition is pointing at it is, yeah, you become a little bit familiar with your nature. You know with your nature, what is our nature? It's creative, it's love, it's compassion.

Speaker 2: 38:55

In Buddhism it's called the bodhichitta, the precious bodhichitta, which is that the most you know, that's like the highest value that the practitioner starts with. You have to cultivate the bodhichitta, which is just a good heart and oh, the heart filled with love and compassion. And they say, yeah, you start when you begin practice as a beginner, that's what you start to cultivate and then, when you become enlightened, that's what you get is the good heart, the precious bodhichitta. You know and you know, and that's where compassion is really the dissolver of what he go par excellence. Because compassion really is a result of snapping out of the spell of the separate self and seeing that all we're, all dream characters were all Interconnected, that we, we, actually, I depend on all of everyone for my well-being and vice versa. And when you realize that, you know, then just in a natural way, compassion arises. And and what he go? It like compassion is like kryptonite. So what he go? It has no place to stand when compassion is really there.

Speaker 1: 40:02

Yeah, it's that's, it's the, it's a compassion, it's this self acceptance which neutralizes the power it has over people, right in a way.

Speaker 2: 40:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah, because what Tico, in a way it feeds off of like Self-hatred. Or then, if I'm not in touch with my own shadow you know the psychological sort of this dynamic that underlies what he go I point out, his shadow projection is scapegoating. So if I'm not in touch with my own shadow, you know what happens. I project it out and and interestingly you know, in his work Young call shadow projection the lie. And the lie who's the liar? It's the devil.

Speaker 2: 40:43

And the idea is, is that shadow projection is, you know, is the actual Shadow in action? Because then we sort of try to exterminate our own shadow or own darkness. We unconsciously project it out there. And think about a dream if you're projecting at your own darkness, out there Into the dream will walk people who carry your projection, who embody the shadow, and then, oh, you see they really are evil. And so then you get even more interest in that viewpoint that the darkness exists outside of yourself as a way of making yourself feel good and righteous and all light. And by doing that, you know, when you amplify that process, you you go to war with that person because you're actually trying to exterminate your own darkness. And what I'm describing is that's an inner process happening in your psyche that you're playing out in the outer world. Because what he goes, an inner disease of the soul that has a magical ability to somehow extend itself out into the world and To express itself via outer events. And that's just like a dream, where the outer world is reflecting Synchronistically what's happening in the inner psyche of the dreamer. And by then trying to destroy that person who's embodying your own darkness, you then become possessed by the very evil that you're trying to destroy. And and that's a way, psychologically speaking, of understanding how this works.

Speaker 2: 42:06

You know, and I'm just trying to point out in as many ways as I can imagine, because what he go can't stand to be seen, it's a form of blindness and when people see it, it becomes unemployed. It has no power over us when we see how what a covertly operates by by, you know, informing and giving shape to events in our world, the external world, and by how it, you know, effects our reactions unconsciously in our minds. But when you begin to see that, you take away its power and you become empowered, you know. So that's why what you go, it's a trickster. It'll do everything in, yeah, to hide itself from being seen. And I'm just saying, yeah, we need to factor all of this into our equation, we need to understand how it works.

Speaker 2: 42:52

Every spiritual tradition I know they talk about you know the profound importance of connecting with our true nature. But they say but before you do that, you have to become conscious of what is that darker force in our minds that's seemingly obscuring us? That if you don't realize that, you know, then you have no way, you can't protect your true nature If you're asleep to the seeming darker powers in the unconscious that are seemingly against us. You know, and, uh, it's like your blind spot.

Speaker 2: 43:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly, and that's why he goes. A form of blindness, it operates through our blind spots in a way that it that then entrances us. That's the whole thing, and I'm trying to point out it. When you set light on that, then you become incredibly empowered.

Speaker 1: 43:43

Yeah, and I was, and I kind of laughed a little bit when you were talking about the trickster, because I I just have experienced that, like how tricky it can be, you know, and it's so funny how these interviews go, because I will think a question and then you'll, you will answer it without me even having that casket, and that's what just happened, which was beautiful. I want to bring up with what you just shared, the, the topic of spiritual bypassing or in the, in the spiritual world that's become really and you had mentioned this from an experience you had with this woman in your book and Dreaming with Tico, I think was the one where I remember reading that and then how some people in the spiritual communities becoming more and more, we were just like, no, we're not gonna look at the dark, we're just gonna be the light and and pretend that it's not there, and then that really, like you're saying, really feeds it more if you're not.

Speaker 1: 44:39

Yeah, you know, you're acknowledging that you have that within you.

Speaker 2: 44:43

No, I have that I so have such insight into that, because you know, I mean, we're both in Portland and you know the big spiritual bookstore in town and you know I've been on the faculty for years, they'll know me and but they will not carry my what Tico books because it has evil in the subtitle or something like that and they're all love and light and there's nothing I can do. You know they're just like you know it, so interesting and and and. And I know because one of my friends was an employee there. So he would tell me the conversations that would happen during their meetings and and you know he was, he was the lobby for bringing in my with Tico books and the owners were like having none of it. They didn't, they wouldn't even want them, you know, in the store at all and I would.

Speaker 2: 45:29

And I know they're thinking. They're thinking is, oh, we don't want to like put any attention on evil because that feeds it. And that's true up to a certain point. But if we're avoiding, like to look at evil, at the darkness, at the shadow, we're actually what we're doing. We're avoiding Relationship with a darker part of ourselves, we're turning a blind eye like an ostrich and that feeds what Tico, by doing that, of course, what we don't want to do, on the contrary, has become overly fascinated by evil. No, that that's really feeding the evil too.

Speaker 2: 46:05

But I'm pointing out no, there's no way around. We have to see it, you know, because remember what he goes to form blindness that operates to the blind spots. When we see it, how it works in the world, how it works in our own minds, then, as a sovereign being, we can choose, saying okay, I see you, and now I get to choose where I place my attention and I want to invest my attention in creating the world I want to live in. See, that's once again, that's kryptonite to what Tico and so, yeah, I see this. It makes me so sad that really well intentioned, very bright, good, open-hearted people, you know, just do the spiritual bypassing thing and it's tragic. It really is sad.

Speaker 1: 46:47

Yeah, absolutely, and with that I would. I want to bring up the topic. I don't know if you have experienced much of this, but with the whole, there's been this Channeling movement. Like all of a sudden, people want to be channelers in the spiritual community and and that you know I I'm not it, I'm not unfamiliar with channeling. I used to really like you know a, a ram Hicks, and you know all the, you know the 90, the people in the 90s, and they're in really 2000s and all that.

Speaker 1: 47:17

But I kind of feel different. I really, over the years, have, you know, created more spiritual maturity and like see it different now. And I see it as it's not a judgment against them, because you know there's some really good stuff that they shared, but also I see it almost as an abat. You're kind of abandoning yourself to let something else come in right. Yeah thinking to myself why, why don't you feel powerful enough to just share it from your?

Speaker 2: 47:44

perspective. You know, it's really funny because there was one friend of mine, a good friend, and I was describing you know, with my books, you, the way I say it, I go, I just become an instrument, you know, an open instrument for something to come through. And then, after that I've written it, I'll read what I wrote and I'll be like, wow, this is really good. Who wrote this? Cause I'm not identified. And one friend of mine said oh, it sounds like you're channeling. And I'm like, said to her I go, well, I'm. Actually, if I'm channeling anything, it's myself.

Speaker 1: 48:17

And you know.

Speaker 2: 48:18

And the thing is, you know, I mean, channeling is a real phenomena. You know, it's a genuine phenomena. I mean, I'm friends with the guy who wrote the definitive book on channeling, so I know a little bit about it and I go back to the work of young. He points out, when we channel, you know, or hear a voice or feel the spirit coming through us, he goes.

Speaker 2: 48:42

It's incredibly important to discern is it from the left stream or the right stream? In other words, is it the voice of wisdom or of God, or is it the deceiver, is it the devil? Is it, you know? Is it what he go? And a lot of people I know who channel, they don't, they haven't developed their discernment Cause one of the things what he go does, it disables our discernment and you know to develop discrimination, differentiation, discernment that feeds consciousness, that feeds the expansion of consciousness. So no, I'm right with you, and that's another thing that makes me sad that a lot of people who are plugging into something, but if they don't have the discernment, you know, then they could be unwilling in channeling something that might not be coming from like the highest place, that could have like a real negative effect on people.

Speaker 1: 49:31

Yeah, I agree, yeah, and I agree with what you said about writing, because I've had the same experience writing my book. I just was writing and not even thinking about it, was just coming through and I think that you know, yes, we do have a lot of energetic support there might be, you know, we may have guides we may have a connection to, we have a connection to source, you know, and our higher self. You know it comes maybe from the higher mind, but I think that and again, like no judgment for people, but I think people I brought it up because I feel like people are just jumping right into it without what you're saying the discernment it takes to really, you know, be able to do that, yeah, and the thing is, you know what you just said.

Speaker 2: 50:16

it brought to mind, you know, because I'm really into, you know, studying young. I mean, when I found his work it saved my life because I was having these completely out of the ordinary experiences. And you know, when I knew I wasn't crazy but I was trying to contextualize it. And then I found the work of young and in his like, for example, in his autobiography, you know, there's a chapter of the confrontation with the unconscious and he was describing his experiences and I realized, oh my God, he's like articulating exactly what I've been going through. So that really really helped me and you know.

Speaker 2: 50:53

So what he was really after in the therapy that he devised was connecting people with their inner guidance. He had the living experience that there was an inner guide in his psyche that, on one level, was part of himself but on another level was some sort of higher dimensional seeming entity that knew stuff that no one was teaching him. It was his, it was like his inner guide. And you know, and that's exactly what he was trying to get across in the type of therapy he created and he calls it the ego, self-axis, that in other words, the ego who we think we are, you know our conscious identification all of a sudden, like getting into an intimate relationship. You develop an intimate relationship with the self, with the higher self, with your totality, with your wholeness, and you more and more have this, like, you know, dialogue and relationship, to the point where, instead of just being totally opposite, they more and more, by becoming intimate, you know, ultimately they fuse and become one.

Speaker 2: 52:03

You know, and that's just a hypothetical, if that ever happens, you know. But and that totally makes sense to me, because even when I write my books, you know, I write in the morning and I wake up and I'm brushing my teeth and I'm getting downloads about what to write about, and I've learned to differentiate between what is the voice of just sort of like you know, the neurotic monkey mind that I just need to ignore. That has a different energetic signature than when I'm getting a voice from, you know, my inner guide, and it's telling me what I'm gonna write about, how I'm gonna write about it, and I've learned to pay attention, because then I'm like employee and I'm getting the dictate from the boss and I've really learned oh, I need to honor that and that's what I mean. When then I go to write and all of a sudden like something is coming through me that I'm just a vehicle for you know.

Speaker 1: 52:54

And when.

Speaker 2: 52:55

I do that. It's profoundly healing for me, you know, and it's real medicine. And that's what this is all about is for us to connect. We all have an inner guide, but we become so conditioned and programmed to sort of push it to the margins and ignore it, particularly in this materialistic, scientific materialistic culture that, oh, it can't be measured, it's not quantifiable, it's not real. But what Jung says is what's real. He talks about the reality of the psyche. That that's the greatest discovery of the 20th century in the realm of psychology. And what's real is what has an effect, is what works. And when you connect with your inner guide and you treat it as if it's really real, well then it'll have very real, these life-transforming effects, you know.

Speaker 1: 53:41

Yeah, yeah. So I find that much of what I experience sometimes doesn't even have a word to describe it, you know, like it's just an energy right.

Speaker 2: 53:55

Right, it's ineffable, it's a mystery, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 53:58

Yeah, yeah and yes, I agree with what you're saying. Like a lot of times I get my downloads in the shower, I'm brushing my teeth or doing the dishes when I'm not like really thinking, or Right. About anything right? I mean, yeah, it's pretty cool, and then I have to stop and write something down before it just goes. But yeah, it's really kind of, when you relax and you let go and you're not trying so hard, then I think that's when it comes, right. No, that happens to me a lot.

Speaker 2: 54:28

I'll be like I'm like in the middle of an article on writing and I'm like, oh, how do I solve this problem? And I don't know. And then I just go and sit in meditation and in like a minute they'll just the answer will be there. And it reminds me when I went to the Institute for Advanced Studies for a visit. That's where Einstein and they just basically took all these geniuses and put them together without any responsibilities. They didn't have to teach, they just wanted to have them hang out and see if they could really tap into stuff. And the thing I remember in the back of the Institute was this woods where, like Einstein, would go for a walk and every hundred feet they would have like a little pad of paper nailed on to a tree with a pencil, because they didn't want Einstein or whoever to be having this revelation and not be able to like coagulate it.

Speaker 2: 55:16

You know, in alchemy one of the major stages is coagulatio, is to coagulate, to take the dream or the vision, to take the spirit and turn it into earth, turn it into something.

Speaker 2: 55:27

And that, you know, brings to mind the importance of being the artist, because the artist is somebody who tunes in. Think about that hidden treasure. They tune in to the potential, you know, that's there in the quantum field and they're able to somehow symbolize it in whatever medium they do, you know, in a way that then gets transmitted to other people. You know, and that's what I'm really, really hopeful, because I feel like so many people are, you know, tuning in because of times like this, of such extreme insanity and darkness and tension, creative tension, that something's available to us, you know, because there's such pressure in our alchemical vessels of our psyche that some of us are able to tune in and bring forth something creative that can be incredibly psychoactivating and can have an incredible effect on all of us and, like I'm saying, that can go viral and that can actually catalyze a real deeper awakening in our species.

Speaker 1: 56:31

Yeah, yeah, many people are talking about this, that and it's going to be happening within all of us. I believe this huge mass awakening, you know, and I you know, as you were talking, it reminded me that when we're taking in these higher aspects of ourself, we're actually bringing into form through the body. We're embodying that through our expressions, but also physically, you know. So I think our bodies are changing as we embody more of these higher aspects of ourself too, but I think it hasn't until now, just because we didn't realize we could do that before. And so now, as we realize we are the creators, we can transmute the energy Like we become, like you're saying that transmitter to Light other people up and well one.

Speaker 2: 57:22

This brings to mind that there is really Not a difference between the mind and the body, you know?

Speaker 1: 57:28

That's true.

Speaker 2: 57:29

Yeah, you can't really separate that out. And this is the synchronistic idea that young came up with, where it took him over 20 years of tracking this before he was courageous enough to publish his work because it was so out of the accepted paradigm. You know that the world is objective and you know the physical is separate from the mental right, but you know he had the rotation. No, no, there's some sort of deeper Interconnectedness between what's going on in our psyches and what's playing out in the world. Then, at those particular moments of synchronicity, it's like a fissure in in that veil where all of a sudden, this, this unified field, or the onus Mundus, the one world that's the phrase he would use is actually revealing itself. And what that means is that the dreamlike nature is Showing itself to us through those synchronistic phenomena.

Speaker 2: 58:19

And the thing which is wild is that you know and I'll talk to my materialist friends and they're just like, oh, that's just accidental, that's coincidental.

Speaker 2: 58:29

But you know, the more we have moments like that, where we see the interfacing, you know, between psyche, you know, or spirit, or the mind and matter, that the two aren't separable, the more we actually take that in and have experiences like that and take that online into our psyche, the more synchronicities we have. You know, and I'm going to point out that in in the undreaming, what he called, there's a big chapter on on synchronicities and I point out that to develop the synchronicity awareness you know, and that's the step out of you know, that sort of bifurcation of mind and matter and of us as separate selves, you know, the more we establish ourselves in that Synchronicity awareness or another way of saying it, symbolic awareness, because symbols being the language of dreams, so we can interpret our waking life as if it's a dream, that the universe is an oracle, the more we establish ourselves in that viewpoint, the more we're able to naturally dispel what he come.

Speaker 2: 59:29

Yeah, and and be more natural and are in inner true nature like you, like you said before right, because the thing about what he go, when it really Gets in and it's in the collective unconscious, so we all have an potential, you know. I mean, think about it. We've all who hasn't fallen into their unconscious and acted stuff out. You know, we all have. You know, so if I think, oh, that person has what he go and I don't, you know, that point of view is showing, I wonder, the spell of what he go. But the what, what happens when somebody, you know, in a way, unconsciously becomes identified with a what he go or taken over by it. They become like a robot, they become totally programmed, like an automaton. You know, think about AI, ai, yeah, yeah, and they become like an embodiment of this, this robotic. They're just a series of program responses with no creativity, you know, programmed in. And that's why, you know, when I meet people who have an open heart or really creative or in touch with their soul, which is something, it's a palpable feeling they're like embodying, you know, like what it's like to sort of be what he go, free, you know, as compared to people.

Speaker 2: 1:00:41

You know, I think of my father. He would, he would say something in a particular, you know, situation, like 25 years earlier and then fast forward 25 years and you know the same situation would happen and he would literally be like a, like a play button just got hit on the tape recorder. He would just literally say the same words he said in response 25 years ago. And that was. He was just completely programmed and he had no idea. You know he was.

Speaker 2: 1:01:06

So that's the thing you know when I say it's an inner disease of the soul that actually has a magical ability to extend itself in the world and configure events to reflect back the inner state of the psyche. You know it's like. You know it's so much. You know where the inner becomes the outer, where we are literally playing out our inner Unconscious on healed abuse. It's getting dreamed up and it's playing out in the world, but it's revealing itself to us like it's the quantum, it's the superposition of states, where it's like the problem, it's the pathology, but it's also showing us our Unconscious and of course, once again, you know, everything depends on, you know, if we recognize what's being shown to us.

Speaker 1: 1:01:54

Yeah, it's a gift. If you look at it like that, you know to be able to see that for yourself.

Speaker 2: 1:02:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but don't recognize the gift and it just assumes its program response of destroying Right, right yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:02:06

Yeah, well, my goodness, yeah, it's kind of like the. It does remind me of like an AI technology that doesn't have any consciousness, so much, but you know, maybe just yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's why the importance, that's why that's why the importance of for us to really connect with our nature, with our heart, with our soul, with our creativity, with our love and our Compassion.

Speaker 2: 1:02:29

You know, and and don't underestimate the power of compassion. You know, like it's the nuclear energy. You know, because it's a real danger to get to fall. It's so seductive and convincing to fall into pessimism. Oh, we're going to hell in a handbasket and Judgment you, you know, yeah, yeah and judgment too right.

Speaker 2: 1:02:48

But the idea is we hold a pessimistic point of view, being like a dream, we're just gonna attract evidence confirming our viewpoint, you know. So then we'll fix in our viewpoint of pessimism and then we're part of the problem, then we're not, we can't be part of the solution, you know. But to see, for example, quantum physics points this out really clearly the elementary part. So quantum physics was trying to find the microstructure of what this world was made of, like, what are the building blocks of the universe. And you know, as they went down, you know, and more sort of like, you know, in scale, they, they, they realized oh, there's nothing physical at the bottom, it's, it's, it's something having to do with consciousness and the way they would understand it. There are these elementary particles that exist, that had existed in the state of potentiality Up until the moment they were observed, and so in every, in any possible state, they existed in potentiality. And then the moment of observation, the wave function collapses and then one of the potentialities would actualize and manifest and all the other possibilities would, they would vaporize, like into parallel universes. But the point is, and what the quantum physicists were saying was that that means, and this is like pretty much a quote, that even if something is Ridiculously and highly unlikely, it could still manifest this very moment.

Speaker 2: 1:04:06

Now, just to do a commentary on that, that is to say that at this very moment we could have a quantum leap and or and there would be a sufficient number of us in our world who are awakening To the quantum nature, the dreamlike nature is seeing what he go, recognize in the shadow.

Speaker 2: 1:04:23

They're, you know, expressing themselves creatively. A lot of ways of saying the same thing Any one of us might be, you know, like. I'll just say like share, like one of the beautiful images young used when you had a glass of water and you put dissolved sugar in the water. It would just dissolve and dissolve each grain of sugar. Then it reaches a saturation point. You had one more grain and a crystal manifests. And he would say that's the way symbols, you know, crystallize in our psyche and any one of us, maybe even in this moment, you know, awakening to whatever degree could be that grain of sugar, that crystallizes a global awakening in the collective unconscious. But then the quantum physicists would say, even the idea that our species could awaken, and you know, in this moment, because that's in the realm of the possible, even though it sounds highly and ridiculously unlikely. It could be this very moment.

Speaker 1: 1:05:22

That happens.

Speaker 2: 1:05:23

And if you're not thinking that, if you're not envisioning that and you're like in trans bipesimism, saying, oh, that you're just magical thinking and new age and all that, then you're part of the problem. So just that's so inspiring to hold out that the hardest core of the hardcore sciences are saying, no, it's completely within our realm, because we already have the solution, we are the solution. It's like we have the philosopher stone, the holy grail we're in, but not only are we in possession of it, we are it in alchemy. They say no, the idea isn't to find the philosopher stone, the idea is to become it, and we already are it. We just don't recognize that.

Speaker 2: 1:05:58

And when enough of us see that and maybe even one person, because what young is saying is that the way to heal this world situation? It's not by politics or legislation or laws. No, we as individuals are the carriers of what's happening in the world, and so any one of us doing our inner work and shedding light on our you see, if we don't shed light on our darkness inside, there's no way we're going to be able to deal with the darkness in the world. But when we shed light on our own shadow, that empowers us to be able to know how to navigate Evil when it plays out in the world, and so that's a very inspiring, you know, sort of this vision, not just young. So many people have had that over the centuries and it can be really inspiring. And it's not people out of that's that you know that curse of pessimism.

Speaker 1: 1:06:49

Yeah, I love that. Thanks for sharing that, paul. That Is an example of I forget this too sometimes that to remind myself everything can change in an instant and we, we, we just forgot who we are.

Speaker 2: 1:07:02

That's what happened for me when I was saying I had this awakening in 1981. I didn't realize this because I had no context, but but years later I realized, oh my god, I I participated in a quantum jump. You know, we're like as I was in one world that I lived in 24 years.

Speaker 1: 1:07:19

Is that the same as a timeline, timeline jump, a quantum jump? Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 2: 1:07:24

I think I think that's the same thing, an equivalent term, because what happened? For 24 years I was living in, you know, the ordinary mainstream reality where certain things were possible and certain things were impossible. All of a sudden, I began having these experiences and this world looked exactly the same, but it was radically different because all of a sudden, the realm of the possible had expanded to unimaginable degrees. And then it's taken me over 40 years of integrating what was being revealed and I'm just so grateful that I didn't buy into, you know, for a moment.

Speaker 2: 1:07:54

Like, so, if psychiatry, they were completely trying to convince me, you know that I was mentally ill, that I needed medication, blah, blah, blah, and. And they took my saying no, no, no, that's not at all what's happening, as just, oh, that's an expression of my pathology. But say, if I did step into their timeline and if I did say, oh, yes, I'm mentally ill and I'm like needing to be on medication the rest of my life, well, from their point of view, it would have been oh wow, we've had another successful treatment. You know, the patient has complied to our viewpoint and it would have killed me. So what is wrong with that picture, you know?

Speaker 1: 1:08:30

yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah. I'll say this real quick because this all reminds me of Uh, yeah, I've experienced that too. I've just everything changes overnight and it's like wait a minute, this feels different, it even things look different. Okay, sorry, a little pause there. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, it reminds me of the man Do you remember, do you know the author of the book the man in the High Castle? Yeah, philip K Dick.

Speaker 2: 1:08:58

Oh, I love in my in the Whatiko book there's a big chapter on. Philip K Dick was totally tracking Whatiko. He called it the Black Iron Prison and he literally said the key to everything is understanding this mimicking stuff. Yeah, Whatiko is a mimic, Remember, it impersonates us, it puts us on. So, yeah, no, I'm super into Philip K Dick.

Speaker 1: 1:09:19

And I remember hearing something about like he actually did go to that actual timeline, he experienced it and he came back into this one and I don't know if that's true or not, but I thought that was so interesting because I was like, wow, okay, that gives me a different perspective on how this whole thing works, you know, because I have experience like stepping into but like, okay, because you, sometimes I'll I'll say this real quick because I know we're coming up, we've, we're past the hour now, but I just I've talked to people and I know that they remember. I mean, it's like they have to remember that this, but they don't. And it's like sometimes I'm like wait a minute, am I in a different timeline? Because everything it feels like people have amnesia. You know about what?

Speaker 2: 1:10:07

Right, Well, that's the thing about amnesia. There's a word and amnesia. Which makes it unforgettable, you know and things they say in Buddhism.

Speaker 2: 1:10:14

They'll have these great enlightened beings who attain enlightenment in one lifetime, and then they'll consciously choose to incarnate, you know, instead of just by being. You know the images instead of a normal person, they die and they're just the winds of karma just blow them here and there and they just incarnate based on their unhealed karma and enlightened person. You know, they can, consciously they can. They can choose and direct. Oh, I'm going to incarnate back in this universe, you know, and help other people to awaken.

Speaker 2: 1:10:46

But one of the things that's most interesting well, one of my teachers is is like you know that incarnation and he was telling me yeah, it's like having dreams on the course of an evening and you have different dreams. And then one dream you're a 67 year old male. On another dream you're like a 20 year old woman. He goes imagine if you keep the continuity of your awareness between those dreams at night. That's like keeping the continuity of awareness between your incarnations and and. But one of the things that's most interesting they say with those beings who incarnate and they were enlightened in the last life, they're able to. When you know, when they get taught stuff, they're able to learn really quickly because they're just remembering what they already knew.

Speaker 2: 1:11:27

You know that. That just really speaks to me.

Speaker 1: 1:11:30

Me too. Me too. Well, thank you, Paul, Before we close up, do you have any last words you want to share, especially about the next year we're coming into? Do you have any any take or feeling about what we're stepping in? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:11:45

So I would just say you know so what's happening in the world. It's so intense, it's unlike anything that we've ever lived through, and the image of busy creates incredible creative tension, like the tension of the opposites in our mind, in the alchemical vessel of our psyche, is getting, you know, very, very intense. And instead of, like you know, there are people I know who just become numb or just they'll split and dissociate or just try to make the best of it. If we have the inner strength or the courage, whatever the quality is to be able to just stay with that tension, that creative tension that's getting consolated in us, and to hold that with awareness and to not prematurely just identify with one of the opposites at the expense of the other, to get away from that pain, because it's a very, it can be, you know, an agonizing experience.

Speaker 2: 1:12:39

But if there is, if you're able to hold that and this is kind of my practice, I do this with varying degrees of success every day then out of that and once again here's young he says out of that comes the transcendent vision, in other words, whose function is helping us to transcend, and all of a sudden we begin to have a vision that we as an ego, didn't think of like something. We have this revelation or an insight, and that's where we can step into our creative selves and express that in whatever form we do. And I just think, when the pandemic happened and the lockdown first happened, you know, I would typically write an article every month or two. I was writing a full article every day because I was so freaked out, you know, and realizing, god, what's happening, and I was just turning it into like infinite creativity, day after day after day, and that was helping me keep my sanity.

Speaker 1: 1:13:31

And I, I experienced the same thing. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:13:34

Yeah, and I think so. That opportunity is really, it's being made available to all of us, because, you know, if we don't, you know, pick up that opportunity, then we just become partial and unconscious, and you know, and develop symptoms and get depressed and pessimistic, and that doesn't serve anyone. And yeah, so that would be my, my last thing to sort of offer to people.

Speaker 1: 1:13:58

Thank you so much, paul, and please leave my listeners with a way to find you, your website your books and whatever you want to share.

Speaker 2: 1:14:08

So yeah, yeah, so real simple of people. If they're interested, if they want to awaken in the dream, go to awakeninthedreamcom. That's my website and it's not monetized at all. You know there's no paywall. The only you can, you know, do I do private sessions where you can buy my books, but everything else, all those tons of articles and interviews it's all for free because I just want this information to get out, because it's medicine and so that would be the way. And then on on that on my website. You know there's a contact Paul. They can send me emails or whatever.

Speaker 1: 1:14:46

Yeah, and you, you do coaching and then I've been in one of your groups and they're wonderful, wonderful group of people really enjoyed, you know, and I'll be doing more of those, but yeah so yeah, yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you, Paul.

Speaker 2: 1:15:00

Alison, thank you so much for the invite. This has been so much fun.

Speaker 1: 1:15:04

Well, same here. Thank you so much. Yeah, your life is your greatest work of art. It all relates back to the same thing.